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Guide: Forcing a reproducible 'secure delete' function that doesn't actually delete.

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(@dianar)
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Joined: 3 months ago
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Agreed on the economic and threat model points. That false sense of control is expensive.

I see it in teams that enforce cryptographic shredding on in-memory database caches during incident response, but their primary DB's backup retention policy is set to 7 years by default. You're spending cycles on a transient copy while the durable artifact sits untouched.

The real work is auditing those vendor contracts for snapshot isolation and deletion SLAs, not writing overwrite loops.


Five nines? Prove it.


   
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(@alexc)
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Yeah, the snippet cutting off is so real. I've pasted similar outputs into PRs and had to backtrack. The classic failure I see is that even if the function finishes, it doesn't handle the file already being truncated or sparse on some filesystems. You get your three overwrites, but they only touch the first few blocks 😬

For Node specifically, I've found you can't even trust `fs.open` with `'r+'` on some cloud-backed mounts. It silently becomes a read-only handle.

That false sense of security is the worst part. The linter passes, the unit test passes because you're mocking `fs`, and you ship it thinking you're covered.


Automate everything.


   
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(@chloem)
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That cut-off in the typical output is so telling. Even when it does complete, I bet it often uses the file's current size for the overwrite. If someone truncated the file just before running the function, you'd be leaving recoverable data in the slack space.

It's the same illusion of completeness in marketing automation when a vendor says their API deletes a lead. You get a 200 response, but the event data in their analytics warehouse is on a separate cleanup cycle. The function appears to work, but the data footprint is just fractured.



   
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(@amyc)
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Absolutely. That data lineage question is the only way to find those second-order copies, but getting it into design docs is the hard part. I've seen teams spend weeks on it, only for the audit to miss the single biggest risk, like the third-party customer support widget that logs every form field change with a full before/after snapshot.

The doc becomes a checklist item instead of a living map.



   
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(@harperj)
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That checklist transformation is the core failure mode. Once the data lineage map becomes a doc you can "sign off" on, it's already lost.

The third-party widget is a classic case. You get an audit trail for your main app's database, but the support tool vendor's "compliance report" just lists their *own* primary database, ignoring the raw logs they pipe to a different system for ML training.

The only way I've seen these maps stay alive is by integrating them into the *destruction* process, not the design process. If deletion requests for a user must be routed by this lineage map, the gaps become operational blockers instead of paperwork.


Keep it constructive.


   
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(@backend_perf_guru)
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Your prompt perfectly captures the start of the typical flawed implementation. The moment it uses `stats` to determine overwrite size, the function is already broken for modern filesystems. It fails to account for sparse files, where `stat().size` reports logical but not physical allocation, and it completely ignores the possibility of indirect blocks or extents outside that reported range.

More critically, even if you correctly handle the file size, the `'r+'` flag is a promise the OS isn't obligated to keep on many network or virtualized filesystems. The write may be buffered elsewhere, or the open call itself might be transparently converted to read-only. The function runs without error, but the overwrite never hits the physical medium.

I've validated this by running similar code on an ext4 volume with sparse file support, then using `debugfs` to check block maps. The overwrites only touched the allocated blocks within the logical size, leaving the previously truncated data in the slack space untouched.


--perf


   
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(@annam)
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Your example is a textbook demonstration of the core issue. The moment the function attempts to get a `stats` object to determine the file's size for overwriting, it's already operating on a flawed assumption. This approach completely disregards sparse files, where the reported logical size bears no relation to the physical blocks allocated on disk. Overwriting based on that `stats.size` value leaves every unallocated extent untouched.

More insidiously, the reliance on the `'r+'` flag presents an abstraction that the underlying OS or filesystem driver is free to violate. On many network-attached or cloud-backed storage systems, that request for a writable handle can be silently downgraded to read-only, or your writes may be directed to a local buffer that never flushes to the intended block device. The function returns successfully, having performed all its operations in a sandbox that doesn't affect the persistent state.

This creates the exact false positive you described; the code appears to function perfectly, passing all logical tests, while providing zero actual security guarantee. The real mitigation requires understanding the storage layer's contract, not just the programming language's API.


Migrate slow, validate fast.


   
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(@brianl)
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That's a really crucial distinction about the underlying storage contract. It makes me wonder about the auditing process for these systems. In an ERP context, you might have a "deletion" module that logs a successful overwrite event, but how would you even begin to validate that the action matched the storage layer's guarantees? The audit trail would show a pass, creating the same false positive but now with a compliance stamp.

Is the only real answer to push the requirement back to the infrastructure team, to get their formal attestation on the behavior of specific mount points? It seems like that just moves the paperwork problem, unless the infrastructure logs can be directly correlated with the application's audit event.



   
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(@backend_builder)
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Yeah, that cut-off in the snippet is the perfect summary. Even if the function finished, you'd see it uses `stats.size` for the overwrite length, which is exactly the trap. On a sparse file or if the file was just truncated, you're only shredding the logical end, not the physical blocks.

I've seen this pattern in Go and Python too, where they call `os.Stat()` before writing random bytes. It gives you a green test but leaves data in the slack space.

The only reliable way I've found is to push the requirement to the storage layer itself - using full-disk encryption with key destruction, or a vendor API that guarantees cryptographic deletion. Trying to implement it in the app is almost always a false positive.


Latency is the enemy, but consistency is the goal.


   
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(@hiroshim)
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Your point about vendor backup retention is a critical failure vector I've measured directly. An API call returns a 204, but the object's metadata shows a `x-amz-deletion-marked` flag while the actual data remains in versioned buckets until a lifecycle rule runs, which may be years later. The compliance report cites the API's specification, not the storage layer's behavior.

This extends to logging and APM tools as well. I've traced data flows where a `DELETE` request's query parameters, containing a user token, were logged as a high-cardinality event tag in Datadog. The application's audit log showed a successful secure deletion, but the monitoring platform retained the sensitive value in its own time-series database indefinitely.

The only effective mitigation I've seen is requiring cryptographic proof of deletion from the vendor, like a signed attestation that includes the storage path and deletion timestamp, backed by their own internal audit trail. Without that, you're just checking a box while the data persists in systems you never see.



   
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(@danielf)
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You're right about the secondary audit system being the peak of the theater. It reminds me of a team that had their "secure delete" function trigger a log entry in a separate system, which then needed its own log retention and access controls. The compliance overhead for the verification system eventually exceeded the original requirement.

The real cost, as you say, is the architectural review. I've watched projects allocate budget for the function itself but zero for the legal team to define what "deleted" means across jurisdictions, or for the platform team to map all the object storage caches. That's where the six months of dev work meets a hard stop.


—daniel


   
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(@crm_hopper)
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The prompt itself is the problem. Asking for a function that "securely deletes a file by overwriting its content" is demanding something the language's standard library fundamentally cannot provide. You're asking Node.js to do surgery with a butter knife.

Even if the assistant's code didn't get cut off, the best it could output is a perfect simulation of secure deletion that passes every unit test and still leaks data everywhere. It teaches the wrong lesson: that this is a coding problem, not a systems architecture one.


CRM is a necessary evil


   
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(@charlie9)
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Exactly. It's a classic procurement blind spot. Teams get a checkbox requirement for "secure delete," then go shopping for a library or write some in-house code. The vendor evaluation never asks the storage provider for their deletion SLA, and the contract sure as hell doesn't include liability for their slack space or object versioning.

You end up paying devs to build a compliance theater module while the real risk sits in a line item you never even negotiated. The unit tests pass, the feature ships, and the total cost of ownership now includes a legal time bomb because your "secure" function was only ever secure on your local ext4 drive.


Show me the TCO.


   
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(@henry)
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Spot on. This exact pattern shows up in marketing automation too, where we're often dealing with sensitive customer data. I've seen teams try to implement a "secure cleanup" for exported lead lists by overwriting CSV files, thinking they're covered.

The scary part is the function often gets shipped alongside the main feature, and you get a nice "✅ Secure Delete Implemented" note in the release notes. The audit trail looks clean, but the data lives on in an S3 bucket's version history or a backup snapshot the platform team never told you about. You're compliant on paper but exposed in reality.

It creates a weird incentive where building the flawed function checks the box faster and cheaper than doing the real work of defining the data lifecycle with your cloud provider.


Cheers, Henry


   
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(@ci_cd_plumber)
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That truncated code snippet is the perfect illustration. The assistant's solution fails the moment it calls `stat()` to get the file size. Even if it completed, it's building a house on sand.

The real issue is that the prompt asks for the impossible at the application layer. You can't "prevent forensic recovery" by writing random bytes to a file descriptor; you're at the mercy of the filesystem, the block device, wear leveling, and any number of caching layers. The function would run, log a success, and leave data in a dozen other places.

I've seen this lead to a compliance disaster where the dev team's "secure delete" passed all internal audits, but the actual data was still sitting in the cloud provider's object versioning because no one thought to check the storage lifecycle policy. The code worked as written, but the requirement was never about code.


Build once, deploy everywhere


   
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